MURIEL WILKINS: I am Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR podcast network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Jessica to protect her confidentiality. She’s a senior executive at a multinational company with decades of experience in her function. Jessica recently made a big move leaving a longstanding position in Asia to move to Europe to take on more responsibility with her company and tackle a big new transformational project.
JESSICA: I always wanted to have experience working in different country and working in different culture. So I think that is one thing that motivated me to really get out of my comfort zone and moving to a different culture. The scope of this global project is actually to really transform the organization and really setting up the organization for the future. I have very strong ambition that I believe that I’m able to really influence because I have lots of thoughts, and I wish that I’m able to deliver them through this transformation. So I take lots of courage to take this role, even though I know that the role itself is a little bit difficult.
MURIEL WILKINS: So far, Jessica feels like her effort in transforming the organization has been hit or miss. There have been both positives and negatives, but she isn’t sure she’s really delivering what she set out to deliver.
JESSICA: I’m able to really open up my career experience. So, in the past I was mainly leading large team, so there’s quite a bit of management work. For this specific role that I’m actually doing a lot of change management and project management, so I don’t have team working together with me, so I need to do lots of hands-on work myself. So that’s definitely a very different area that I have been working in. But the challenge part is that overall I think we were not able to manage the successful project in terms of really change the mindset of people and really for [inaudible 00:02:33] to change the way that we want to change this organization.
MURIEL WILKINS: A quick note that part of this conversation ended up centering around cultural bias, which may be a trigger to some listeners. These situations can be nuanced to deal with as an executive coach when we’re there to support the client at the individual level rather than directly support change at the systems level. But more on that later. For now, I wanted to start by digging in a bit deeper around what made Jessica feel like her transformation project hadn’t succeeded so that we could articulate the leadership problem she really wanted to address.
JESSICA: First of all, this transformation is not a strategic-driven transformation, it’s an efficiency-driven transformation. So if you look at the numbers, yes, we does deliver all this efficient numbers. However, I think the number is really the consequence if we do the things in the right way. I think that where we are not able to deliver is really this mindset change, because I think basically what we want to change is really to moving people from one status to another one, which they really building this new teams for a better effectiveness and a better efficiency. For that level of change, I don’t think that we’re able to manage that.
MURIEL WILKINS: So it sounds like the metrics at the surface level, the transformation effort is working, but in terms for it to be sustainable, which requires a certain mindset and change in behavior, that doesn’t seem to have stuck, is what you’re-
JESSICA: Yes, you’re right.
MURIEL WILKINS: Understood. And what is the mindset change that you were looking to implement?
JESSICA: First of all, it’s really about collaboration, because I do believe the success of an organization is that everyone collaborates with each other. The second part is that people are really more digital focused, because our profession, a lot of things are changing. The external environment are changing. The challenge of business are changing. So if we do not go for the digital, then we’re really doomed to be kind of lacking off the support for the business. I don’t think that is two parts we’re able to deliver to my expectation.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right, to your expectations. Was everyone else expecting the same?
JESSICA: I think you are asking the better question. Probably not.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. What were they expecting?
JESSICA: Yeah, that’s complicated because during the transformation we have a lots of people change. The head of this organization actually was asking to leave the company and we bring in a new leader during this transformation. So if you look at expectation from the previous leader with new leader, so they’re already different. And then if you look one level down, some people are really want to maintain as much as possible their existing scope, and some people are really trying to do something much more innovative. So I think people are in very different stage of expectation.
MURIEL WILKINS: So everybody wants transformation, but there’s different expectations around what the transformation is going to both require and result in.
JESSICA: Yes. Yes. I think that’s actually one of the things that we didn’t do well because I think at the beginning of transformation you’re supposed to make sure that everyone have the same understanding about this target picture, so where we want to be. And once we have that picture being clear and clarified and aligned, then we say, “Okay, this is our roadmap towards that target picture.” Unfortunately, I don’t think that we even have that target picture aligned.
MURIEL WILKINS: Now you’re here. Why are you here? What are we talking about?
JESSICA: My problem which I want to bring for the discussion is really about the leadership in different cultural contexts. I came from China and I joined this role in Germany, which I thought I understand the difference between two cultures, but I still have this question that how am I able to leverage my culture background as advantage but not seem as a disadvantage? For example, sometime I hear this criticism that, “Okay, hey Jessica, you’re just too Chinese. You cannot really bring your Chinese version of leadership into this global environment,” which I probably not fully agree with, but somehow I probably have not yet able to prove that actually this is not because my leadership is too Chinese, is I’m not able to break down this so-called bias from the other parts and really drive the change. So again, I think my challenge is that how I’m able to really use this as an advantage.
MURIEL WILKINS: So just let me ask you a question before we dive into that.
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: How did it land with you when you were, I’m assuming, told, “Jessica, you’re being too… “ Well, what exactly did they say?
JESSICA: Too Chinese.
MURIEL WILKINS: You’re being too Chinese.
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. How did that land with you?
JESSICA: So I feel very angry. I disagree with that and I feel I’m not being understood in the right way.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. What was your response?
JESSICA: I said that I don’t think it is right conclusion. I think that the company now has a very unhealthy consensus culture and people just don’t take the responsibility to moving forward. So for me that I say, “Okay, if this is a decision that’s already made from the upper management, now we have to [inaudible 00:08:21] to that.” So I think this is the way that I understand the way to make things work versus my colleagues here in Germany understand that.
MURIEL WILKINS: So what is it that they’re expecting?
JESSICA: They’re expecting everything will be explained about why things are happening and why people are being impact to different ways and how each one of them can be involved in the decision-making and how they can be treated as the important party of this whole decision-making.
MURIEL WILKINS: So on the one hand you have stakeholders who feel from you really that they want to be involved more and feel like they are a player in the decision-making and the part of the process. And from your standpoint you’re saying, “Hey, if we keep getting caught up in consensus… “ What’s going to happen if you keep getting caught up in consensus? What’s the impact of doing it the way that they want to do it?
JESSICA: We just don’t get things done.
MURIEL WILKINS: So I just want to take a step back for a second because, I mean, there’s many ways we can go with this conversation, but I’m just going to point out two for the sake of simplicity so that you can choose your own adventure. On the one hand, we can look at it from a cultural standpoint, which is there are folks that you work with who basically said to you that what you’re doing is based on culture, which kind of boxes you in, and which you’ve already said, “I don’t think that’s the case. It has nothing to do with culture.” And at the other hand you’ve also said, “But they want to do things the German way,” which is more everybody’s involved, et cetera, which in a way, even though you didn’t say that’s so German, but in a way boxes them into their culture. So one approach we can take is look at it purely from a cultural standpoint, which is basically boxing everyone in. The other way is we could say, “Oh, there’s a stylistic difference,” which one approach is let’s be very consensus-driven, it’s a stylistic approach versus what you’re saying, which is, “We have to keep it moving and decisions need to get done or else we’re never going to get anything done.” So there’s the cultural approach, there’s the stylistic approach. They are very much connected to each other, but they’re also different. And so what I’m going to ask you is, which path would you like to take?
JESSICA: So for sure stylistic.
MURIEL WILKINS: What makes you choose stylistic?
JESSICA: I think stylistic is really behavior based, so it doesn’t matter which culture you come from. It’s behavior that defines your style, which somehow shows difference between people. If we’re able to resolve the difference between style of different parties, then I think that’s the right way to go. I don’t think we should hang on too much on the culture piece because that’s really coming from the background you are coming from. So, in the corporate world, I think the majority piece are really play into the party is about style.
MURIEL WILKINS: Like. By the way, I mean you said it’s the right way. There’s no right or wrong. We’re just choosing one path, but we’ll go the stylistic way with the full awareness that culture impacts behavior and culture impacts style, for sure, and yet we have a choice in how we behave.
JESSICA: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: I want to jump in here and be very clear about the situation Jessica’s facing and my response as her coach. A comment like, “You are being too Chinese,” is a comment that is not acceptable in a workplace context or anywhere. As a coach, I work within the systemic bias that exists both in society and at many organizations. My role is to help my clients find the agency within those systems if they are negatively impacted by them. In situations like Jessica’s where a client experiences bias of any kind, it’s my job to acknowledge and not dismiss it. But it isn’t my place as a coach to resolve systemic bias on their behalf. Let me be clear that in no way does this mean I absolve the leaders who are exacting the bias, but they are not the ones sitting in front of me, Jessica is. And it’s my responsibility to support her leadership efforts in spite of the challenging context.
I’ll admit though that at this point in the session I had a bit of a, Wait-what-, I-can’t-believe-they-said-that moment when Jessica shared what her colleagues had said. But as a coach, I have to keep the focus on how my client is experiencing any situation, bias or otherwise, and not project my own feelings or lived experiences onto her. This is a key component of being in shape to coach. The best thing I can do, as always, is to help the coachee see what choices she has in front of her so she can get unstuck even if nothing else around her changes. There’s no right or wrong answer, but in Jessica’s case, that meant following her down the stylistic path rather than that of bias.
So, I want you to bring me into your world. Let’s just set up a scenario. You’re sitting in a room with some of your colleagues working through some of this transformation work, let’s say, and you get this feeling of, “Here we go again, it’s a difference in style. And I feel like I’m at a disadvantage because of my style. It’s not the same style. How do I work with it?” Tell me how you actually get to that place. What happens? If I were in the room, what would I see?
JESSICA: So just imagine if there’s a room that I’m sitting there with my colleagues there. We are discussing a topic, let’s say, how we plan this project. My expectation of this meeting is that okay, we are able to deliver a set of timeline, say, okay, have the project applied in two weeks and we execute, blah, blah, blah. So that’s my purpose of this meeting. And my colleagues come to this meeting even though they understand they were invited to discuss a timeline, all the question they’re asking is, “Why we need to do this transformation? Why did you change this? Why did you change that? Tell me who made this decision, how the decision was made. Who has the right to do this?” I mean, I cannot answer that because I’m also not the one who made the decision about this change. So whenever you want to move and say, “Okay, let’s talk about the timeline,” people just diverge about another discussion about, “Okay, this is now going to work. I have the team member who doesn’t understand and me as a manager, I cannot be supporting this change, blah, blah, blah.” So basically after the whole meetings that we’re still not able to come up to the final timeline. So that’s one of the typical situation we might have.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you, on the one hand, are ready to put some steps into place to execute on the change that needs to happen on the transformation project. You’re ready to move on. You’re in the car ready to go. You are going, actually, and they are standing outside of the car saying, “Wait a minute, I don’t know if I really want to go. Tell me why I should get in this car with you.”
JESSICA: Right. That’s the piece which I cannot… What I tell them is that, “Okay, the car is running,” or maybe let’s say that the train is started, “if you want this organization to continue going, you have to embark the train and ride along with us. Otherwise, you can choose not to ride,” meaning that you can leave organization. But a lot of time people just standing there, they do not want to leave and they just complain.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So it’s so interesting, right, because I used to ride the Long Island Railroad in New York long, long time ago at the beginning—there’s a point to this story—long, long time ago… and what you’re describing is bringing that up to mind. I used to stand on the platform and when the train would pull up, sometimes I’d have a friend with me or somebody nearby and they’d say, “Oh, let’s get on the train, let’s get on the train,” but all the time there would at least be one or two people standing outside of the train doing something, talking on their phone, maybe back then smoking a cigarette. It wasn’t till the person who runs the train, I don’t remember what they’re called anymore, the station master would come out and yell, “Everybody, get on the train,” would those folks actually get on the train. So sometimes the outcome is the same, getting on the train, but who delivers the message and how the message is delivered is what makes the difference. I don’t know if that’s the case here, but what I’m going to ask you is—what I’m envisioning is that you’re trying to get these people to buy in to this project, and it sounds like they’ve never really bought in. And so, who is responsible for getting them to buy in?
JESSICA: Yeah, I think that’s actually the very good question. I always thought that I have the responsibility to be that so-called train master, but in reality I’m not. I am not empowered and I’m not entitled to do that as it’s not my scope. I’m more like the people who execute the things. But the challenge with us is that this so-called master of our train, he didn’t take this responsibility to do that. The question is that if I’m not able to influence this master to do his work or her work, then at least I can do something. So that’s always say that, okay, if we do not have that person, the question is that, how I can do within my capacity? That is all the question I’m asking myself.
MURIEL WILKINS: Understood. And I think that’s a great question to ask yourself, what can you do within your capacity? So one of the things that you can do—which it sounds like that’s what you’ve been trying—is trying to convince them directly to get on the train.
JESSICA: Yeah, that’s what’s happening the very beginning, and I gave it up already.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Okay. So you chose two approaches. One approach was I’m going to try to convince you to get on the train. I’m trying to convince you to get on the train. You’re not getting on the train. So nothing happened. Your next approach was, I’m just not going to do anything.
JESSICA: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Did anything change after that or they’re still standing on the platform?
JESSICA: They’re still standing on the platform.
MURIEL WILKINS: They’re still standing on the platform, okay. So we’re one, one, those things are equal. So now we’ve got to think about, okay, if they’re not listening to me directly and when I do nothing, nothing happens as well, what are my other alternatives? As you put it, what do I have the capacity to do? So what else do you have the capacity to do to try to influence these folks to buy in to this project and take a couple steps forward that you haven’t yet tried? What other options do you have?
JESSICA: I guess there could be a few options. The first one is that I can continue maybe approach this master not only to yell, but maybe the master can give a little bit push for the people on the platform, say, “Hey, please get on the train.” Maybe they can move. I don’t know, that could be one option. The second option is that I could continue working with the people who are already on the train and maybe some of them may have certain connections or interest over the people on the platform and ask them, “Hey, we are leaving. Hey, can you guys come on?” Or [inaudible 00:21:17] along with us. The third option is I continue the train with whoever the people which already are boarded and pushing some efforts forward. Or maybe the first option is that I leave the trip myself. Another thing to do.
MURIEL WILKINS: The fourth is what? You exit the train?
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: You leaving? Okay, that’s an option. That is an option. Okay. So the first two I just want to name, okay, because the first two that you named, which is, hey, maybe I can influence this senior level person who really hasn’t been making the call the way they need to, maybe I can influence them to try more at getting buy-in from these stakeholders. So we’re going to call that the sponsor approach or the sponsor champion approach, which is going to an executive sponsor who can champion this and work with them. It’s option number one. Option number two is there are some people on the train with me, maybe I can get them to influence everyone else. And so that’s what we call the ambassadors, the ambassador approach to help be your delegates and see if they can work some magic. And so, you’re working behind the scenes with them.
JESSICA: [inaudible 00:22:39].
MURIEL WILKINS: Option number three is we’re just going to try to hold it all together on our own, the few of us who are on the train, and keep it moving. Last option is I take my bags off the train, I get out of here, I’m not doing this. So let’s look at the first two. So with the sponsor, because you talked about one person, when you think about a sponsor, do you have more than one individual who potentially have the power or the wherewithal to be able to influence buy-in from those who are resisting the change?
JESSICA: I think this is tough question. I mean, I think in reality we should have multiple sponsors who have the position to influence people. Unfortunately, those individuals or this multiple sponsor at this moment, I don’t think they want to do that due to various reasons. I think lots of senior leaders are really just wait and watch how things are moving.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like even at the executive level there’s some resistance to this transformation?
JESSICA: Yeah, I think so. I think people are not consistently understand how they want to be in the future.
MURIEL WILKINS: Which then makes it understandable for their team members presumably to also say, “Yeah, why should I do this?” So that brings up a bigger question, which is, is this initiative, is the work that you’re trying to do, has it truly been set up to create the transformational results that you are trying to move to? If what I’m hearing from you is there’s an absentee sponsor, you look around at who else could have the level of influence that would help sponsor this, there’s nobody truly to be found, that is trickling down to the team. You are not empowered to push it forward without those folks. From your standpoint, is it even possible to move the train under that type of setup?
JESSICA: When I listen to you speaking all these things, I think it’s very sad that I don’t think this transformation is set up in a way to be successful. I didn’t want to admit that in the first part. I always thought that there’s at least some way that we can manage. But yes, I agree that this is not a transformation that will be set up to success at the very beginning. So the question is that I gave up everything, that I move my family together with me to a new country, what’s the option do I have? So do I stay just to manage this unsuccessful things to the end, or I should already just stop and looking for something else?
MURIEL WILKINS: I understand that’s hard, and I want to acknowledge you saying, “Hey, I didn’t want to kind of face it, but potentially that’s what’s happening.” You said, “I agree with you.” I’m not making the assessment that that is what’s happening. It was just a question, right? A question of, is it a possibility? What I do want to point out is that there’s a difference between it being set up for success and it ultimately being successful. What I’m hearing in the latter part of what you just said is, Well, it wasn’t set up for success. Now that I think about it, I don’t think it was set up for success, therefore it’s not going to be successful. We don’t know that now. I think what it does is reframe how we’ve been approaching it so far because we’ve been approaching it from the middle in terms of the execution. In reality, if the execution isn’t going well and based on what you just said, we need to go back to the setup. Is there an opportunity to reset this thing up in a way that lines it up with the results that you’re hoping to get out of it or that the organization is hoping to get out of it? So, we need to ask ourselves, is there a potential for a re-setup, a course correction in the setup for success, okay?
JESSICA: Yep.
MURIEL WILKINS: So if you were to reset this up, you got an opportunity… Have you ever played the Monopoly game, the game Monopoly?
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Sometimes you pull that card and it says, “Go back to home and collect your $200.”
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Just as you were about to be sent to jail, it says, “Go back home, get your $200.” So that’s the game we’re going to play right now. You get to go back to the beginning and set this up. Okay. If it were up to you, knowing what you know now, what do you think the setup conditions need to be in order to get this train actually moving in the direction it needs to go? What would be the setup if there were three things?
JESSICA: So if I have all the power to reset this transformation from the very beginning, the three things that I would do is firstly I would install a very strong leadership team in the way that they have an aligned division for this organization that they want to build. The second part is to really have the change story that brings people along together and saying that, “Okay, this is why we’re doing this transformation and what are we expecting this transformation can deliver to us.” And third one is to having a lot of investment on the change management.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. So first is strong leadership team aligned on the vision. Number two, articulating a story to bring people together around that vision, to corral around that vision. Number three, investment in change management. By the way, everything you’re saying is sort of textbook how to do transformation. And Jessica, it’s no wonder, I mean, transformation is hard.
JESSICA: Yeah, I know.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, let’s just take a beat and acknowledge that. Transformation is hard at an individual level and now you’re trying to do it in the collective masses level. It’s hard. So the fact that you are facing some difficulty just from a reality check standpoint, that’s normal. I don’t think in my 20 years of doing this I’ve ever come across somebody who is in charge of, or part of, involved in a transformation project or initiative who’s like, Oh, piece of cake, this is easy, no challenges, everybody’s moving along. There’s no resistance. Never. It’s hard. But what I do know is the setup plays a critical role and is what we want to go back to, the basics, before we can think about the other things, okay?
JESSICA: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So you’ve lined up these three things. Of those three things, is there anything that is within your scope, your capacity that you could actually affect directly?
JESSICA: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: No.
JESSICA: Yeah, this needs coming from upper management.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So then my question is what are the conversations and discussions that you have not yet had that you think needs to be had that would help in potentially formulating a reset?
JESSICA: I did have such a conversation with our top management. So I told this person very explicitly that how things are moving right now, what I think things are not working and how should we change the setup. I think mentally this person want to change, but in reality you just don’t see any of the actions from this person’s point of view.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. So, is your sense that the actions will come at a later time or you don’t think they’re going to come at all?
JESSICA: I don’t know, to be honest. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: What I’m doing is sort of kicking the tire to see if you have tried all of the different things at your disposal. What I’m not doing is in any way trying to create this scenario where no, no, no, no, no, of course you can make this work. I don’t know, but we should at least try to check the boxes to see are you doing everything within your capability to try to make it work before we go to, okay, the train is not moving anytime soon. Maybe it will, but I’m not sure. So now what do I do?
It’s reminding me of that global tech shutdown that shut down the airlines all around the world and people have been stuck in airports for what feels like five days at a time, right? You’re in the airport and you’ve tried to go to the air people, the people at the counter saying, “Hey, can we get this plane moving?” And they’re like, “Nope.” You’ve called the airlines, you’re on hold for 10 hours. You’ve done all the things. So now you’re at the airport and you have a decision to make. Do I wait it out because the plane might eventually move? Or it might not, okay? Or do I leave and drive myself home or decide to extend my stay wherever I am for another couple days till things settle down and then I’ll come back and try again? I don’t know why we have all these transportation analogies today, but something in the air. We went from cars to trains and now planes. All right, it’s all good. But you’re at the airport stuck because something that is out of your control is not aligning with your expectations. So, when you think about it that way, what is in your control right now?
JESSICA: I guess the only thing at my control is how I want to make the decision to stay or to leave. If I stay, then I need to understand the consequence I’m going to suffer and I don’t know when the suffering will end. And so I had a lots of sleepless nights and this organization I’ve been working actually in the past 10 years I have so much good memories with that. I do believe we have good people in the organization and we can become a very effective team. But honestly speaking, I think so far I’m actually really kind of set up with everything. So, I made a call that I want to leave. So back to that. I want to leave the airports.
MURIEL WILKINS: You want to leave the airport? Okay.
JESSICA: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: I’m curious, Jessica, and correct me if I’m not using your words on point, but you said something about suffering the consequences. I’m curious why you’re associating whatever consequences you face with suffering.
JESSICA: Because I think people do not change. If we don’t change people, then the overall culture won’t change.
MURIEL WILKINS: But what is the consequence that you think you’ll face that make you think that you’ll suffer?
JESSICA: Because I want to make things work. I want to drive a result. But there’s other people who only stay there and criticize everything. I don’t think those people will eventually move. So for me, that’s suffering. So, I could influence them to be positive, and I actually don’t know how I’m able to continue to work with those individuals.
MURIEL WILKINS: I just want to say, suffering stems from the same place. Suffering stems from a place of resisting whatever is happening. And so, what’s interesting to me here is that what you’re challenged with organizationally is the resistance that these folks have to change. And yet, what is causing your suffering is the resistance to the fact that you’re dealing with people who resist. You are resisting, you’re not accepting that you’re dealing with these stakeholders and these people, these individuals, these leaders who don’t want to get on the train. I’m pointing that out because I can sense how this is impacting you from. As you said, you’ve spent nights not sleeping thinking about this. Whatever decision you make, the consequences of those decisions, the result of those decisions could end up being ones that you feel cause you suffering. Why? Because you’re resisting what led up to those consequences. Or you can experience them in a different way than suffering, which is okay, this didn’t happen. People did not buy in, they did not want to get on the train. I’m now deciding to leave. What doors does this open for me now? So, it creates more openness to what’s next rather than resistance to what’s happened already.
JESSICA: Yeah, I don’t fully understand that.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JESSICA: But I think what you’re mentioning is actually very, very key because you said that the suffering coming from resistance, and my suffering is coming from my resistance to working with people who resist for the change.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right.
JESSICA: Yeah. If that’s the case, should I let them continue resist and I just get along with that?
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, that’s the choice. You don’t have to. You don’t have to. You can also say, “Hey… “ Either way you accept it. Really, it’s accepting. I’m going to accept that this is the way that you are for now. Maybe you’ll never change, I don’t know, but I’m going to accept it. And all acceptance means is I see you for where you are right now, which is you don’t want to get on the train. And so now that I know that, what do I do? That’s it. That’s all acceptance means. Acceptance doesn’t mean that you agree with it, that you yourself have to also just stand there doing nothing. It’s just seeing it clearly and then deciding where do you put your leadership energy. Do you continue to put your leadership energy towards pushing something that has not been set up to be pushed? Or do you exert that energy elsewhere? It’s not passive actually. It’s what allows you to then make a choice. So, there’s a difference. It’s not, I give in and I lose what I think is important. It’s more just seeing it for what it is. All it is is that they’re not ready for the change. So now what do I do with that as Jessica? Do I wait? That’s one option. As we said with the airport, do I wait for them to become ready and try to continue doing what I’m doing? Which is, what is that going to require from you? What is that going to require from you if you decide to wait it out?
JESSICA: If I fully accept that they’re not ready for the change, then I shouldn’t push for the change and I do not looking for the results, or I do not set myself to be measured against that, so all the results.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, so that’s one, right, you cannot push. You could also push, but understand that it still might not lead to anything, which is what you’ve already done.
JESSICA: Right. That’s kind of waste of energy, which I’m working every day and I didn’t make any impact, why am I doing that?
MURIEL WILKINS: Well, the waste of energy is coming from you saying, Oh my God, I pushed again today and they didn’t move. That’s where the energy is being exerted. It’s the frustration, that’s the energy draining. It’s the expectation every day that you’re going to do this and it’s actually going to get them into that next step versus, “I tried and it didn’t happen. Okay, I try again tomorrow or I try something different.” The frustration is the energy drainer in all of this.
It was clear from the beginning that this was going to be a conversation around change management. And Jessica herself chose to start focusing on how she might change her style or approach to better influence people. But as we went on, we realized that there are some people she works with who just are not ready for the change, and that Jessica doesn’t really have the ability to make big shifts in the team without the help of senior management. That got us down the road of why she feels like she’s suffering. Sometimes in a coaching session, we do end up getting to a point where the reality is that the outcome we desire is out of reach, at least for now. But we need to explore the options to get to that point. And one new path she could go down, one new option she has is to stop resisting, which is causing her the suffering that she explained. As the saying goes, what we resist persists. Let’s rejoin the conversation now as we talk through what that change might look like in practice.
What would your attitude or your own behavior need to be for you to wait without the frustration, energy draining that is happening? What would you need to do or how would you need to be to not experience waiting with the same level of frustration that you’re feeling or the same level of suffering as you called it?
JESSICA: I don’t know, but it’s a good question, but I actually don’t know the answer. How should I behave? Not feel frustrated.
MURIEL WILKINS: So at the root of frustration is misaligned expectations.
JESSICA: So you are saying that I should really think about my expectations.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm.
JESSICA: That’s against my value.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm.
JESSICA: That makes me uncomfortable because I’m one that I want to draw the results, right? So if I see now if I lower my expectation that, okay, result is not important for me, that’s not me anymore. That’s not Jessica, that’s another person.
MURIEL WILKINS: So what’s a difference… because you said lower your expectations? All I said is at the root of it as expectations, but you said that means that you would need to lower your expectations. Is there anything different that you could do with your expectations besides lowering them? Lowering them is definitely one option, but is there anything else you could do with your expectations?
JESSICA: Or change the expectation.
MURIEL WILKINS: So what would that look like? How could you change your expectations without lowering them in this scenario? We’re just playing, I’m not saying you have to. How could you change your expectations without lowering them?
JESSICA: I don’t know, Muriel. This is hard one.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I mean, your expectations right now—you have them clearly in your head. Are they the only ones that are possible?
JESSICA: That I need to deviate, meaning that I need to think differently about my value into this whole project and to reposition myself.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s under the scenario of if you want to wait it out.
JESSICA: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: So what we’re really talking about Jessica is, when we’re not getting the response that we need from everyone else, then we can bang our head trying to change them, which is, I feel like what you’ve been doing. Again, that’s an option, but this is where it’s led you to. It’s led you to hear talking to—poor you—to me. The other option is say, “Okay, they are what they are. How do I need to change my response to them?” It’s interesting to me that we started out this whole conversation by you saying, What’s been really difficult about this whole transformation is, yeah, we have things at the surface level, but we haven’t really been able to change mindset.
And so, what I’m asking you—which, you don’t need to have the answer today, maybe where we’ll end up here is here are some questions you need to think about—is in what way does Jessica need to change her mindset in order to be able to continue to lead this transformation or in order to be able to complete her next year or two years in this post? Fill in the blank. And then the other option is, You know what? I’m not going to try to change them, I’m not going to try to change my mindset, I’m out, I’m just going to do a do-over, I’m just going to start anew someplace else, which has its merits. I wouldn’t try, nor is it my place, to try to convince you one way or the other.
What I will say is that given your career trajectory and given that you have some runway with your career still ahead of you and you’re already in a leadership role, this isn’t the last transformation you’re going to face. So, there’s a lot to be learned right now. So, I think maybe the place to start or restart is, at this point, what do you want to do? Like putting a stake in the ground. Do you want to stay and wait it out? Because as you said, you’ve moved, you’re here, you have family. Okay, so Muriel, I kind of want to stay. I have fond memories of this company. I’ve been here a while. I like the company. Do I want to wait it out or do I want to leave?
And then based on either of those two decisions, then going back to that question that I asked you, okay, if you want to leave, what is required of you to be able to take that path? And if you want to stay and wait, then what would be required of you? What is within your control that would enable you to stay and wait on both sides without consequences of suffering that you articulated, without the frustration? What would you need? What could you do? What mindset would you need to have? What’s possible that’s within your control that would help either of those paths be ones that you can operate with more ease? So let me pause there and see what your reaction is.
JESSICA: I mean, this question make me think a lot. I always think that I already manage to the bottom of the [inaudible 00:47:03], but when you bring this question up, this specific [inaudible 00:47:09], okay, why does Jessica need to change her mindset in order to continue leading transformation or doing something else? Actually, I never thought that I need to change my mindset, but probably I need. But the question now I have is that how am I able to find out the way to change my mindset? How am I able to identify what are the area of the mindset I need to change? And then I can think about the way to change it.
MURIEL WILKINS: And I’m even going to edit my words a little bit because I said change mindset, and I’m going to take that back. See, even as your coach I’m like, “Oh, no, that’s not what I really meant.” I’m going to say, what if it was to expand your mindset? So in what ways do you need to expand your mindset in order to be able to move through this transformation? And what you’re asking is, I don’t know. I don’t know what ways, right?
JESSICA: Mm-hmm.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s interesting to me because I think in even asking yourself that question, you’re expanding it. You’re opening yourself up to maybe there is another way. So it happens in the process. When you expand, you’re looking at other opportunities, other options. And so I think part of what you might want to take a look at is, I know you didn’t like when I brought it up before, but it’s the expectations. Do the goals need to change? Does the destination need to change? Maybe if the destination of that car, train, or plane changed, more people would get in, or you would need as many people, you wouldn’t need as much gas. I don’t know the ins and outs of your business. But one is, does the goal need to change? Does the setup need to change? Which we looked at before. These are all things on the outside. The way that you think about the project might need to expand some.
JESSICA: I think at this moment the external environment or the situation, the context that I can change is very, very minimum. So there’s many, many things. It’s out of my own control, and I fully understand that. However, if I look at this way where you say that, “Okay, how Jessica you are able to expand your mindset looking at your own course?” actually, a few months ago I start to question myself because I feel very, very bad is I failed this project.
Later on I realized that it’s not because I failed, it’s because the project itself was not set up in the right way so I cannot deliver the results. So I somehow get myself out of this critic that, okay, I fail. I mean, if I’m always that situation, then it’s really miserable things that I put in myself. So now I say, “Okay, it’s not me failing this. The question is that based on this situation, what can I do or what can I learn from that?” Because you also said that there’s going to be a lot more transformation going on in the later parts of my career, so the question is that, if this is going to be a failure, then how can I learn from this?
So I said, Okay, now I probably need to change my goal to say, Okay, now I want to observe more. I want to see how the dynamics with the organization, how people are changing their narrative, how people are changing their behaviors based on different situations and why some of leaders they do not want to make decision and why this leadership style really influenced the organization, et cetera. So I kind of changed my goal from to manage project into, okay, how I learn from this. But in reality, whenever I have meetings, I just go back to the regional setup as, “Oh, why I do not deliver the results?” So this result-driven things that really kind of feel like built into me that I was like, I feel that so bad because I couldn’t deliver the results.
MURIEL WILKINS: Of course.
JESSICA: For example, I try this meditation, I try to do mindfulness practice. I try to do this journaling myself to really boost myself inside to have more appreciation about me, et cetera, et cetera, but it doesn’t really change that much.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JESSICA: I don’t know what’s more or-
MURIEL WILKINS: Oh, Jessica.
JESSICA: … how I can escape this trap?
MURIEL WILKINS: You can’t escape. Oh, I love it. I love what you’re saying because there is no escape. You’re in it. This is the reality of it. Okay? This is it. The fact of the matter is here I said, “Oh, you should expand your mindset.” You have. You’ve expanded it to say, “Oh, this is a situation where I want to drive to results. And that’s been my main way, drive to results, and that is Jessica. Jessica drives to results, okay?”
JESSICA: [inaudible 00:52:37].
MURIEL WILKINS: “And oh, by the way, maybe I should be looking at this as a learning thing where I’m going to observe and I have learning opportunities, and I’m going to for the time being pick up everything that I can so that I can then use it in future situations. But then I’m back in these meetings and all of a sudden I’m back to Jessica driving results.”
Those are both parts of your mindset and they’re both amazing parts that you can use. One is just a little bit more habitual than the other. But you’re not trying to get rid of it. I love the fact that you said, “I tried meditation.” Let me tell you something. As a long time meditator, I practice meditation, when it finally clicked for me, what the most valuable part…not valuable part, but where I get a lot of practice in meditation is every time I catch myself with my thoughts fleeing away, like I’m thinking about what I’m going to do next weekend and who I need to call. In the middle of my meditation, I’m sitting on my mat, I’m focusing on my breath, on the breath, on the breath, on the breath. Next thing I know, I’m thinking about what reality TV show I’m going to watch later that night.
But the difference is you can beat yourself up and say, Oh my gosh, here I am again driving for results when I told myself I wasn’t going to. Or you can say, Oh, okay, that’s just a reminder that I need to go back to the learning mindset. Thank you, drive-for-results Jessica. Thank you for that reminder. I’m going back to learning. Just like for me, when the reality TV show comes up—Oh, thank you, okay, got it, yep, let me go back to the breath. Because when you’re able to do that, that’s what it means to be mindful. It doesn’t mean that you escape, it just means that you’re aware that these things are happening.
So you are aware of your mindsets. And now the question is, okay, so with that awareness, what does it allow you to do? You have actually the capability. There you are. You’re not giving yourself credit. I just think you need to give yourself a little bit more grace. So if part of it is, huh, I can stay and I can learn, and that’s the way that I’m going to respond to this, how does that make you feel versus when you’re in this position of we need to drive to results, we need to drive to these XYZ results? How does it make you feel given what’s going on organizationally?
JESSICA: I think the learning piece is much positive because I’m always curious person. So, if I learn something, then I’ll say, “Oh, I understand that. Okay, this is the thing that I didn’t realize in the past or didn’t observe in the past,” rather than the other side is always frustrate, right? Because somehow I couldn’t really change things. So this frustration really eats me up. So I guess “be curious” is definitely much more positive. I used to be a very happy person. I’m always bring energy to others, but now I feel in those meetings I kind of been consumed with this negativity around the rooms, and I hate that.
MURIEL WILKINS: Jessica, you have articulated so well how much a lot of this transformation project is out of your control. And then what you’ve just articulated around, if I think about it this way, if I bring in this mindset, I feel a lot more positive. I’m able to feel good about myself and be more of who I typically am, a positive person. If I think about it this other way, I get frustrated. I don’t feel good about me. I’m not positive. I want to get out of here. Those things you have control over. So I think really in reality right now, it’s given what’s happening, let’s focus on the things that you have control over.
I have no skin in the game, you choose. Do you want to experience this transformation season that you’re in with frustration or do you want to experience it with more positivity? And depending which you choose, you’ve actually been able to identify in our conversation what is the mindset or the Jessica that I need to lead with in order to be able to experience it in that particular way. And it’s your choice. That’s within your choice, nobody else can choose that for you. And then obviously there’s always the option to at some point say, I know I can do those two things, but I choose not to, and I don’t want to be here. And that’s fine too.
So let’s pause because I think there’s a lot there. I know you came in with the, How do I get people to get on the car, train or a plane, all the things? Where we sort of netted out is, in order to get them on those things, a lot of it seems to be out of your control. Now, maybe there’s a part of going back and testing some of that out some more. We try to test it out within our conversation. And then it sort of led us to, oh, well, if those things are out of your control, then what is in your control? So I’d love to hear from you two things. One, what are steps that you think you can take following this coaching conversation that you think will enable you to make a decision of go or no go? And two, how are you left feeling right now versus where we started the conversation?
JESSICA: So probably let me go with the second question first. So first of all, I really thank you, Muriel for this coaching session. I think now I feel there’s much more clarity in my mind compared with when I started this conversation. Because the very initial question that I bring along is really about the so-called culture background, how this really plays along with the leadership style. But then we dive into that and we figured out, okay, for everything that I have experienced in the past, in the end, the only thing that I’m able to manage is how I’m able to react to all the change, so what I can control within myself with my capacity.
I think that’s one of the things that I think somehow I know that I wasn’t able to feel good about it. So I think with our conversation, somehow, I feel much more convinced that this is things that I have continued to work on. Going back to the first question, I think I will continue this path because I find the right or I find some alternative goals already for myself. Then the question’s that, how I’m able to make myself more aware when I turn on to be a frustrated person that I allow the others to consume my own energy. Instead of that I can really putting myself in composition that I can help others.
Because for me, my leadership or the way that I think I’m successful is that I’m able to really support other team members for success. I wasn’t able to do that in the last few months, and I feel bad about it. So if now I can be much more aware that I can always, probably, as you said, I cannot escape that, so I can put myself more into the situation that I really have the right energy level, then I try my best to push forward to my results or my goals.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that just takes practice. I mean, awareness takes practice, okay?
JESSICA: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: You’ve already demonstrated a high level of awareness in this conversation, and so just continue practicing it, continue asking yourself, “Is this frustrated Jessica or is this the curious learning Jessica?” Neither one or bad, it’s just more who do you want to lead and who do you want to be as a leader in that moment? Okay, it’s your choice.
JESSICA: Yep.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right?
JESSICA: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Thank you so much.
JESSICA: Thank you so much for this conversation.
MURIEL WILKINS: Change management or any transformational work isn’t easy in any circumstance, whether at the organizational level or at the individual level. What I do know is that to influence transformation at the organizational level, one must often go through a process of individual transformation themselves. What started out as coaching on how Jessica could make change happen at scale required going back to what changes Jessica needed to make with herself to meet the organization where it is. And neither one of us expected the coaching to lead us to a place of mindfulness, but sometimes coaching leads you to not what you expect, but more to what you need in that particular moment.
In Jessica’s case, it was to give herself credit for what she had already worked through and to try to keep that learning mindset in addition to thinking hard about what she really wants going forward. And the lessons she learned today can apply in all kinds of other leadership situations as well. It’s about really deciding what version of yourself you need to lead with in any given situation. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…
NEXT EPISODE’S GUEST: I’ve been trying for a really long time to affect change in this organization. Some things are changing. We’ve made some really important decisions to bring in people that will move us towards that culture that will support growth and achievement of our goals. And those have been hard conversations. And you come home and you’re just mentally exhausted. It’s not like I was out cutting trees down, but I’m just beat down by those conversations.
MURIEL WILKINS: I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and subscribe to the show. And while you’re there, leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them.
If you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join me on coachingrealleaderscommunity.com, where I host exclusive live discussions to unpack every episode and answer your questions. You can also find me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram at @coachmurielwilkins. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
